Congratulations on doing well on the juries performance! I looked up your schools website. It looks prestigious. You must be quite an accomplished oboist. You plan to become part of a symphony orchestra some day or teach oboe?
Well, maybe Andrew was having a bad day for some other reason unrelated to you. People will displace their frustrations about something else onto the nearest person sometimes. Then again maybe he was just being an a-hole. I use to be supersensitive and take slights personally. It tends to subside over time. If people want to act rudely, I don't want anything to do with them anyway. Still probably not a good idea to let Andrew bully you. But you don't want to lose your own sensitivity either. Then you end up like those people.
That vampire tv series is "True Blood".
I hope you find something useful on the link that I sent you. Let me know what you think of it, if you do get a chance to peruse it. I like to find out what influences people. Then again, you may just want to spend you summer having fun. Hope you have a good areligious summer.
So sorry I forgot to get back with you with the link. Here it is:http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/. I was having a hard time with the computer that night. I'm new to copying and pasting. I like the way it's organized and from the outline it looks thorough in it's presentation of foundations of atheist thinking. I only read a few sections, but the man obviously put a lot of thought and research into it. If you check it out, let me know what you think of it. There is so much great reading material out there, but I'm not sure where you should start.
So school's out in 4 days! Excited? I have to start some studying this summer for a recertification that I have to do. I'm not looking forward to it. So my summer will be a bit of a drag.
I fortunately did not have the personal experience of Christians mistreating me like you had. Some Christians do a better job than others of living up to their standard of "doing unto others...". But that's just human nature. Kids especially can be cruel. Some people just don't have much in the way of sensitivity or empathy. We just have to be careful that we don't become like the people whose behavior we dislike.
My companion is into vampire books. She's read an entire series recently. She was showing me some vampire program on cable tv that's set in Louisiana. I, myself, am not much for being spooked and can't handle violence.
"Mom took that and said, "we're not supposed to look at the people, because man will always disappoint. We're supposed to look at God" "
This is one of the problems with Christianity. They have this notion of perfection - perfect love, perfect behavior - that they call God. To live in the real world, we have to give up the notion of perfection. Humans think the world should be a certain way, but we have to accept that the world was not made just for us and perfection is not achievable, including human behavior. And it has nothing to do with sin. Through evolution nature has given each human a repertoire of potential behaviors. In one situation, a benevolent behavior may be useful. In another situation a malevolent behavior may be beneficial to that person. As you get older, I think you'll find that most people mellow and reject the malevolent for the benevolent because it's in their long term best interest. Did any of that make sense to you?
Keep thinking for yourself. I'll keep checking in on you. I hope you have a safe trip home.
Sorry you've been sick. Being sick sucks. Hope you're all better now. My computer is sick and at the computer repair shop with a broken hinge, so I'm borrowing a computer.
Oboe camp - you are really into that, aren't you?! That's good. I'm not musical at all but wish I were. I did get my kids various music lessons. Reuben did Suzuki violin for several years. They dropped the lessons around 13 years of age though. So now I have a piano, violin, guitar, and saxophone that no one plays. How sad!
I'm glad you have some friends who don't do religion. I also hope you can get out of going to church this summer. Going to church, for me, was torture. When I finally refused to go any longer at age 20, it was a nasty scene with my getting angry and my mother weeping and gnashing her teeth. I felt manipulated by her emotional outburst. I hope you never have to go through anything like that.
As for biblical inerrancy, Christians have nothing on which to base that belief except some bible verse that says all scripture is inspired by god. I'm sure the Koran and Book of Mormon claim the same but Christians don't believe that. The writings in the Bible would be equivalent to hearsay in a court of law. It would be thrown out as inadmissable as evidence. The fundamental mistake Christians make is to take that book as truth. It is a hodgepodge collection of writings - which are full of contradictions- and most of it is unreadable. I should know - I tried. Much of it is pure myth and even borrowed myths at that. There are books that address the origins of the Bible if you're ever interested in reading something along those lines.
Know what you're going to read this summer? If you're wanting to get into some writings on religious skepticism, there's a link on this website to a blog that takes one through the logical process as one leaves religion behind. Of course, you could skip that and do all the heavy duty thinking on your own, like I did, or just continue on your merry way and ignore religion. I'll give you the address in separate comment. I'm afraid I'll lose everything I've written if I go look for it now like I did earlier.
What do you think of the liberal church in Michigan?
Sorry I've been out of touch. This two day course I've had to take this week was demanding of my time and attention. Yesterday, I needed to spend some time on a remodeling job Reuben and I have been doing on Charley's old room. It's taken us 3 to 4 weeks and I'm ready for it to be done. Tomorrow I start on two sixteen hour shifts over the next two days. I've been overworked and exhausted this past week.
So do you have things planned for this summer? You think your mom may not enforce the church attendance? For your sake, I hope not. I found church attendance to be stupefying - just torture. I haven't been to a religious service in almost 30 years. Do you have friends who also don't buy what religion is selling - someone you can share your doubts with? You say your mom is not fundamentalist. My understanding was that almost all Baptists are fundamentalists. So does she not read the Bible as literal truth?
I know how oppressive it can be to not feel free to speak one's mind. My mother's excessive religiosity made me feel this way. There was only one right way to think or behave, and it was her way. These decades later I wish I could have had enough confidence to speak up for myself at the time, but I was unable to do so until I was 20. By that time I was full of anger and depressed. For me to be happy and sane, I knew I had to separate from religion and that this would make my parents, especially my mother, deeply unhappy. I felt emotionally manipulated. I was at a point where my only response could be an emotional one, so I think I understand your tendency to emotion when criticized. If you are anything like I was as an adolescent, your voice has been suppressed and ignored so long that only emotion can come out sometimes. I believe it is wise of you though to try to control your emotional responses. Accept them. They are legitimate. Emotions are a guide, but let them lead you to thought processes that will put you into a well reasoned intellectual position. If you're criticized, feel free to critique the criticism. If the criticism is legitimate be willing to attempt to change. Keep an open mind and always be honest with yourself. A criticism may be a spur to positive change although it may sting initially. If you find a criticism to not be valid, do the cognitive work and defend yourself - if only to yourself and no one else. Don't let it evolve into a sense of lesser self worth. You are still growing as a person and will be for a long time as long as you keep thinking. If you are here at this website, you are sufficiently cerebral to channel emotion into a cognitive defense of who you are and what you believe or don't believe. Work on being able to express your thoughts with carefully selected words - I'm still doing so. The more you're able to do that the more confidence you will have and the less you will need emotion as a defense. Using emotion and reason is a balancing act.
Well, that's my perspective. Hope it's helpful. I enjoy discussing these matters with you. If you see things differently, feel free to say so.
There are many excellent posts on this website. I'm glad you are taking advantage of them.
I'm having to do some intense studying for a course I'm taking Thursday and Friday so I won't be able to respond again until this coming weekend. Keep me informed on how you're doing. I care.
I'm sorry things are so difficult with your family. Sounds like your dad and grandmother are controlling. I think every family has some dysfunctional aspects, some more than others. Your dad's controlling nature is regrettable and is not unusual for those mired in religion. Religion promotes an authoritarian perspective - authoritarianism in our thought processes, in family matters, and in politics. The theme of the entire old testament is obedience to authority. I have a 16 year old son who is very responsible and independent. Because he is responsible and makes good decisions, he has a lot of freedom and I feel no need to control him. I don't attempt to control his thoughts and tell him what he should believe. I also have an 18 year old son who has frequently been irresponsible and made poor decisions -involving inappropriate drug and alcohol use - that without correction would have a negative impact on his future. I was forced to put limits on his privileges before he moved out. I would have preferred that he develop his own self-control mechanisms. He is doing better. I want my children to be independent and be able to think for themselves. I avoided indoctrinating them in my personal disbelief in god although they are aware of my views. I'm confident that, lacking an indoctrination in religion during childhood, they will feel free to apply reason in any future assessment of religion. I'm glad you are moving beyond religion and seeking more information.
Hypocrisy of Christians can certainly be a driver of people away from religion. I think it signals an insincerity or inadequacy of their belief system.
Religion offers a flawed view of the world. It's emphasis is on sin and guilt and an incomplete morality that relies heavily on personal bigotry and unrealistic standards of behavior and thought. The notions of sin and guilt erroneously suggest that we are in complete control of our thoughts and actions and leads to a constant need to place blame on our fellow human beings. Using a naturalistic worldview and an understanding of evolution, our "good" and "bad" behaviors can both be seen as potential adaptations depending on the environmental situations. This is not to suggest that we do not have responsibilities to each other and to ourselves or that we should not have societal consequences for inappropriate or harmful behaviors. Morality and ethics are important parts of our functioning as a social animal. Rather than the much lauded, but unrealistic, christian notion of "love" as the basis of morality, nature and science show us that the basis of ethics and morality is trust and empathy. Religion, also, provides a poor understanding of why suffering occurs - laying the blame on human beings. In a nutshell, from an evolutionary perspective, physical suffering is the price biological organisms pay for mobility. Trees and plants do not experience physical pain and do not need to because they have no way to escape physical harm because they are stationary. Mobility gives biological organisms the means for escaping physical harm and to search for food thus the need to have an aversion mechanism - pain - to avoid dangerous situations. Emotional pain is the product of our being social animals. Our survival depends on each other. When we experience emotional pain, it is our evolutionary signal to change our behavior so that we can better get along with others and society or to find others with whom we can get along and who will be an asset to our survival. Additionally, to maintain a faith-based belief requires one to ignore reality and evidence when it is inconsistent with what one believes. It requires gross intellectual dishonesty. These are profound weaknesses in religion and Christianity.
If you're from a fundamentalist religion, you may not have much of an understanding of evolution. But understanding evolutionary principles, is essential to understanding, not just how biological organisms got here, but also to understanding human and animal behavior.
You responded, "Maybe I'm an atheist". Maybe you are. You're definitely precocious and independent to consider rejecting what your parents and religion have attempted to drum into your head. If you've read very many of the testimonials of the cognitive journeys of the people on this website, you have found that for many people de-conversion from religion and embracing atheism is a slow process that can take place months and years. Occasionally, it may be fairly instantaneous. In my own case, even though I cognitively could see the unlikeliness of god's existence and, in a moment of profound skepticism, identified myself as an atheist, it would be years later that the last emotional vestige of doubt about god's nonexistence would disappear. The length of the deconversion process, I think, is just a reflection of how deeply into our brains religious indoctrination rooted itself when we were children. Even the religious are atheists. Christians are atheists when it comes to Muslim, Hindu, Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Roman, Greek and dozens of other gods and goddesses that are products of the human imagination.
Why you have an aversion to the word atheism, likely is just a subconscious association it has with "bad" or "evil" that was implanted in your brain by your exposure to religion. Atheism is nothing more and nothing less than a lack of belief in gods. Anything atheists may know or believe beyond that extends from the freedom of thought allowed by moving beyond religious dogma. Without going into them, there are many arguments against god's of existence - that's another discussion. Ignoring atrocities perpetrated by religion, Christians like to point to atheist societies - the Soviet Union, communist China and Pol Pot's Cambodia - as being the source of most murderous acts in recent history. Those murderous acts though were not driven by atheism but by lusts for power and other non-supernatural faith based beliefs - the supremacy of working and peasant classes. They evolved out of undemocratic, authoritarian societies where the ends were considered to justify the means - a moralistic mistake made by the religious and nonreligious alike. Some claim that Hitler was an atheist, but there is a quote of his that indicates he felt that he was "doing the Lord's work" in his policies toward Jews. The groundwork for the holocaust was actually done over centuries by christian persecution of European Jews. Some of the founders of our own country were either atheists or deists (not holding any belief in the divinity of Jesus) - Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine. They were products of The Enlightenment not of dogmatic and fundamentalist religious traditions.
Hope the above helps you gain some insight. This website has many links you should check out. If you haven't seen it already, let me suggest a cd by Julia Sweeney "Letting Go of God" it's funny and profound too. I can get you a copy if you are unable to find it on youtube or the web.
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Congratulations on doing well on the juries performance! I looked up your schools website. It looks prestigious. You must be quite an accomplished oboist. You plan to become part of a symphony orchestra some day or teach oboe?
Well, maybe Andrew was having a bad day for some other reason unrelated to you. People will displace their frustrations about something else onto the nearest person sometimes. Then again maybe he was just being an a-hole. I use to be supersensitive and take slights personally. It tends to subside over time. If people want to act rudely, I don't want anything to do with them anyway. Still probably not a good idea to let Andrew bully you. But you don't want to lose your own sensitivity either. Then you end up like those people.
That vampire tv series is "True Blood".
I hope you find something useful on the link that I sent you. Let me know what you think of it, if you do get a chance to peruse it. I like to find out what influences people. Then again, you may just want to spend you summer having fun. Hope you have a good areligious summer.
So sorry I forgot to get back with you with the link. Here it is:http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/. I was having a hard time with the computer that night. I'm new to copying and pasting. I like the way it's organized and from the outline it looks thorough in it's presentation of foundations of atheist thinking. I only read a few sections, but the man obviously put a lot of thought and research into it. If you check it out, let me know what you think of it. There is so much great reading material out there, but I'm not sure where you should start.
So school's out in 4 days! Excited? I have to start some studying this summer for a recertification that I have to do. I'm not looking forward to it. So my summer will be a bit of a drag.
I fortunately did not have the personal experience of Christians mistreating me like you had. Some Christians do a better job than others of living up to their standard of "doing unto others...". But that's just human nature. Kids especially can be cruel. Some people just don't have much in the way of sensitivity or empathy. We just have to be careful that we don't become like the people whose behavior we dislike.
My companion is into vampire books. She's read an entire series recently. She was showing me some vampire program on cable tv that's set in Louisiana. I, myself, am not much for being spooked and can't handle violence.
"Mom took that and said, "we're not supposed to look at the people, because man will always disappoint. We're supposed to look at God" "
This is one of the problems with Christianity. They have this notion of perfection - perfect love, perfect behavior - that they call God. To live in the real world, we have to give up the notion of perfection. Humans think the world should be a certain way, but we have to accept that the world was not made just for us and perfection is not achievable, including human behavior. And it has nothing to do with sin. Through evolution nature has given each human a repertoire of potential behaviors. In one situation, a benevolent behavior may be useful. In another situation a malevolent behavior may be beneficial to that person. As you get older, I think you'll find that most people mellow and reject the malevolent for the benevolent because it's in their long term best interest. Did any of that make sense to you?
Keep thinking for yourself. I'll keep checking in on you. I hope you have a safe trip home.
Yours, reasoningbeing
Sorry you've been sick. Being sick sucks. Hope you're all better now. My computer is sick and at the computer repair shop with a broken hinge, so I'm borrowing a computer.
Oboe camp - you are really into that, aren't you?! That's good. I'm not musical at all but wish I were. I did get my kids various music lessons. Reuben did Suzuki violin for several years. They dropped the lessons around 13 years of age though. So now I have a piano, violin, guitar, and saxophone that no one plays. How sad!
I'm glad you have some friends who don't do religion. I also hope you can get out of going to church this summer. Going to church, for me, was torture. When I finally refused to go any longer at age 20, it was a nasty scene with my getting angry and my mother weeping and gnashing her teeth. I felt manipulated by her emotional outburst. I hope you never have to go through anything like that.
As for biblical inerrancy, Christians have nothing on which to base that belief except some bible verse that says all scripture is inspired by god. I'm sure the Koran and Book of Mormon claim the same but Christians don't believe that. The writings in the Bible would be equivalent to hearsay in a court of law. It would be thrown out as inadmissable as evidence. The fundamental mistake Christians make is to take that book as truth. It is a hodgepodge collection of writings - which are full of contradictions- and most of it is unreadable. I should know - I tried. Much of it is pure myth and even borrowed myths at that. There are books that address the origins of the Bible if you're ever interested in reading something along those lines.
Know what you're going to read this summer? If you're wanting to get into some writings on religious skepticism, there's a link on this website to a blog that takes one through the logical process as one leaves religion behind. Of course, you could skip that and do all the heavy duty thinking on your own, like I did, or just continue on your merry way and ignore religion. I'll give you the address in separate comment. I'm afraid I'll lose everything I've written if I go look for it now like I did earlier.
What do you think of the liberal church in Michigan?
So when is school out?
I like to hear from you.
Yours, reasoningbeing
Sorry I've been out of touch. This two day course I've had to take this week was demanding of my time and attention. Yesterday, I needed to spend some time on a remodeling job Reuben and I have been doing on Charley's old room. It's taken us 3 to 4 weeks and I'm ready for it to be done. Tomorrow I start on two sixteen hour shifts over the next two days. I've been overworked and exhausted this past week.
So do you have things planned for this summer? You think your mom may not enforce the church attendance? For your sake, I hope not. I found church attendance to be stupefying - just torture. I haven't been to a religious service in almost 30 years. Do you have friends who also don't buy what religion is selling - someone you can share your doubts with? You say your mom is not fundamentalist. My understanding was that almost all Baptists are fundamentalists. So does she not read the Bible as literal truth?
Stay in touch.
Yours,
reasoningbeing
I know how oppressive it can be to not feel free to speak one's mind. My mother's excessive religiosity made me feel this way. There was only one right way to think or behave, and it was her way. These decades later I wish I could have had enough confidence to speak up for myself at the time, but I was unable to do so until I was 20. By that time I was full of anger and depressed. For me to be happy and sane, I knew I had to separate from religion and that this would make my parents, especially my mother, deeply unhappy. I felt emotionally manipulated. I was at a point where my only response could be an emotional one, so I think I understand your tendency to emotion when criticized. If you are anything like I was as an adolescent, your voice has been suppressed and ignored so long that only emotion can come out sometimes. I believe it is wise of you though to try to control your emotional responses. Accept them. They are legitimate. Emotions are a guide, but let them lead you to thought processes that will put you into a well reasoned intellectual position. If you're criticized, feel free to critique the criticism. If the criticism is legitimate be willing to attempt to change. Keep an open mind and always be honest with yourself. A criticism may be a spur to positive change although it may sting initially. If you find a criticism to not be valid, do the cognitive work and defend yourself - if only to yourself and no one else. Don't let it evolve into a sense of lesser self worth. You are still growing as a person and will be for a long time as long as you keep thinking. If you are here at this website, you are sufficiently cerebral to channel emotion into a cognitive defense of who you are and what you believe or don't believe. Work on being able to express your thoughts with carefully selected words - I'm still doing so. The more you're able to do that the more confidence you will have and the less you will need emotion as a defense. Using emotion and reason is a balancing act.
Well, that's my perspective. Hope it's helpful. I enjoy discussing these matters with you. If you see things differently, feel free to say so.
There are many excellent posts on this website. I'm glad you are taking advantage of them.
I'm having to do some intense studying for a course I'm taking Thursday and Friday so I won't be able to respond again until this coming weekend. Keep me informed on how you're doing. I care.
Yours, reasoningbeing
I'm sorry things are so difficult with your family. Sounds like your dad and grandmother are controlling. I think every family has some dysfunctional aspects, some more than others. Your dad's controlling nature is regrettable and is not unusual for those mired in religion. Religion promotes an authoritarian perspective - authoritarianism in our thought processes, in family matters, and in politics. The theme of the entire old testament is obedience to authority. I have a 16 year old son who is very responsible and independent. Because he is responsible and makes good decisions, he has a lot of freedom and I feel no need to control him. I don't attempt to control his thoughts and tell him what he should believe. I also have an 18 year old son who has frequently been irresponsible and made poor decisions -involving inappropriate drug and alcohol use - that without correction would have a negative impact on his future. I was forced to put limits on his privileges before he moved out. I would have preferred that he develop his own self-control mechanisms. He is doing better. I want my children to be independent and be able to think for themselves. I avoided indoctrinating them in my personal disbelief in god although they are aware of my views. I'm confident that, lacking an indoctrination in religion during childhood, they will feel free to apply reason in any future assessment of religion. I'm glad you are moving beyond religion and seeking more information.
Hypocrisy of Christians can certainly be a driver of people away from religion. I think it signals an insincerity or inadequacy of their belief system.
Religion offers a flawed view of the world. It's emphasis is on sin and guilt and an incomplete morality that relies heavily on personal bigotry and unrealistic standards of behavior and thought. The notions of sin and guilt erroneously suggest that we are in complete control of our thoughts and actions and leads to a constant need to place blame on our fellow human beings. Using a naturalistic worldview and an understanding of evolution, our "good" and "bad" behaviors can both be seen as potential adaptations depending on the environmental situations. This is not to suggest that we do not have responsibilities to each other and to ourselves or that we should not have societal consequences for inappropriate or harmful behaviors. Morality and ethics are important parts of our functioning as a social animal. Rather than the much lauded, but unrealistic, christian notion of "love" as the basis of morality, nature and science show us that the basis of ethics and morality is trust and empathy. Religion, also, provides a poor understanding of why suffering occurs - laying the blame on human beings. In a nutshell, from an evolutionary perspective, physical suffering is the price biological organisms pay for mobility. Trees and plants do not experience physical pain and do not need to because they have no way to escape physical harm because they are stationary. Mobility gives biological organisms the means for escaping physical harm and to search for food thus the need to have an aversion mechanism - pain - to avoid dangerous situations. Emotional pain is the product of our being social animals. Our survival depends on each other. When we experience emotional pain, it is our evolutionary signal to change our behavior so that we can better get along with others and society or to find others with whom we can get along and who will be an asset to our survival. Additionally, to maintain a faith-based belief requires one to ignore reality and evidence when it is inconsistent with what one believes. It requires gross intellectual dishonesty. These are profound weaknesses in religion and Christianity.
If you're from a fundamentalist religion, you may not have much of an understanding of evolution. But understanding evolutionary principles, is essential to understanding, not just how biological organisms got here, but also to understanding human and animal behavior.
You responded, "Maybe I'm an atheist". Maybe you are. You're definitely precocious and independent to consider rejecting what your parents and religion have attempted to drum into your head. If you've read very many of the testimonials of the cognitive journeys of the people on this website, you have found that for many people de-conversion from religion and embracing atheism is a slow process that can take place months and years. Occasionally, it may be fairly instantaneous. In my own case, even though I cognitively could see the unlikeliness of god's existence and, in a moment of profound skepticism, identified myself as an atheist, it would be years later that the last emotional vestige of doubt about god's nonexistence would disappear. The length of the deconversion process, I think, is just a reflection of how deeply into our brains religious indoctrination rooted itself when we were children. Even the religious are atheists. Christians are atheists when it comes to Muslim, Hindu, Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Roman, Greek and dozens of other gods and goddesses that are products of the human imagination.
Why you have an aversion to the word atheism, likely is just a subconscious association it has with "bad" or "evil" that was implanted in your brain by your exposure to religion. Atheism is nothing more and nothing less than a lack of belief in gods. Anything atheists may know or believe beyond that extends from the freedom of thought allowed by moving beyond religious dogma. Without going into them, there are many arguments against god's of existence - that's another discussion. Ignoring atrocities perpetrated by religion, Christians like to point to atheist societies - the Soviet Union, communist China and Pol Pot's Cambodia - as being the source of most murderous acts in recent history. Those murderous acts though were not driven by atheism but by lusts for power and other non-supernatural faith based beliefs - the supremacy of working and peasant classes. They evolved out of undemocratic, authoritarian societies where the ends were considered to justify the means - a moralistic mistake made by the religious and nonreligious alike. Some claim that Hitler was an atheist, but there is a quote of his that indicates he felt that he was "doing the Lord's work" in his policies toward Jews. The groundwork for the holocaust was actually done over centuries by christian persecution of European Jews. Some of the founders of our own country were either atheists or deists (not holding any belief in the divinity of Jesus) - Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine. They were products of The Enlightenment not of dogmatic and fundamentalist religious traditions.
Hope the above helps you gain some insight. This website has many links you should check out. If you haven't seen it already, let me suggest a cd by Julia Sweeney "Letting Go of God" it's funny and profound too. I can get you a copy if you are unable to find it on youtube or the web.
Yours, reasoningbeing
There is something about naming an inanimate object that allows a more "intimate" relationship with it that you would not have otherwise.
See...I get it. lol ;)
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